Malhavoc Press

Book of Vile Darkness and The Banewarrens Chat Transcript

Interview With Monte Cook at EN World
May 2, 2002 -- 6 p.m. PST

Monte joined folks in the chat room at EN World to discuss his newly announced "Big Book o' Evil," the Book of Vile Darkness from Wizards of the Coast, as well as his upcoming release The Banewarrens and many other topics. Thanks to everybody who attended this two-hour marathan, to all the folks at EN World for their hard work in making this chat happen, and, as always, to fab moderator Russell Morrissey for sharing this transcript* with us.

Morrus: Everyone here knows who Monte is, I'm sure. This is the second of two chats -- the first chat was last month.

Monte: I appreciate you guys coming back. I like doing this.

Morrus: Well, let's talk about the topic buzzing around the messageboards right now. So -- what's your secret project, Monte? :)

Monte: What secret project? You mean Morrus' Big Bad Book of Evil Stuff? Or whatever it was that we called it last time.

Morrus: That's the one. I hear Wizards of the Coast changed the name at the last moment. :(

Monte: The Book of Vile Darkness, yes. You want to talk about that?

Morrus: We sure do! So, in a nutshell, what's it all about?

Monte: In a nutshell? It's about introducing evil of all types into your campaign. It explores some really dark topics, and talks about how to handle them in your campaign. This includes diseases, poison, selling your soul, sacrifices, perversion, corruption, evil spells (and what makes a spell evil), torture, self-mutilation, demon lords, archdevils, evil artifacts, and more. It has a lot of plot hooks and ideas for villainous motivations beyond the norm.

Morrus: I hear it was your brainchild from the start. What made you think of this book?

Monte: I guess it came about as I worked on the Blackguard and the Assassin, and thought about when and where these guys would see more support. While people at Wizards were thinking about books about fighters and monks and whatnot, I was trying to think of innovative ways to present that sort of splatbook info, and doing it by alignment was one option. I also proposed a Book of Exalted Deeds. Don't know if that will happen.

Ceredhion: Will some of the things in the book be innapropriate for younger readers, then?

Monte: Yes. Absolutely. After I came up with the idea, Wizards decided they wanted to have a small line of "mature audiences" material. This is the first of those. It wasn't my idea to do it that way, but that's the way it worked out. I think it's okay.

Morrus: A line? Is there more of this stuff slated that you're aware of?

Monte: Yes. Obviously, I can't tell you anything about it, but the obvious support for Book of Vile Darkness would be an adventure/sourcebook of some kind.

Morrus: By you?

Monte: Nope. Not me. :)

Morrus: Was it hard pitching the idea to Wizards, or did they show interest immediately?

Monte: No, it wasn't hard. Like I said, they morphed it into something that they were thinking of doing anyway. (And at the time, I was a part of Wizards, too -- we're really talking about "pitching" to the brand/business team here.) All the rumors you heard about Wizards or Hasbro not wanting this book are untrue. It's really no different than DC Comics having the Vertigo line.

Crustyferret: If i could suggest a question, I'd like to hear Monte's ideas on how to provide hooks for a party of evil PCs, and how such a party could stay together for the long haul...

Morrus: I guess this ties in with the question, "Is it really possibe to run a viable evil campaign?"

Monte: Well, this is a topic in the Book of Vile Darkness. I think it's possible, but really hard. What you have to do is decide whether or not you're playing truly evil characters or just "we're not good" characters. Evil, as in sacrificing children and exploiting common people or evil as in "bwahaha, now we'll beat up another paladin." Both are viable. One can be fairly distasteful. Hooking evil characters into a plot is usually fairly easy because you play on their greed and ambition. Evil characters are interesting because everyone -- good and evil -- can be used as foes for them. That said, there's not a lot about running evil PCs in the book, because that's not its focus.

Morrus: What about the catalog text that claims the book contains details on prostitution? I hear that that's not actually the case?

Monte: I certainly didn't write about prostitution in the book. It does deal with sex. Not as in rules for sex (that's silly) but as in using it as part of a character's motivation. It's not a major part of the book, but sexual predetors and vile deviants deserve at least a mention in a book like this. If you're talking about truly bad people.

Morrus: So, how "adult" is it? Would it compare to White Wolf's "Black Dog" material?

Monte: Well, no. The Black Dog stuff that I saw had a lot of supreme gross-out stuff in it. This has some of that, but not nearly to that degree. I worry a little about the whole "adult" label, because what some people call "adult" is actually somewhat purile.

Morrus: After this and Cthulhu d20, are you looking forward to a break from the evil stuff by working on The Book of Hallowed Might under your own Malhavoc Press label?

Monte: God, yes. When you add in The Banewarrens, which is an adventure about a really evil place full of evil stuff, I'm pretty tired of evil, I must say.

Morrus: You mentioned that you pitched a "Book of Exalted Deeds" to Wizards. If that doesn't come to pass, would you be likely to do something similar yourself?

Monte: In a way, that's what The Book of Hallowed Might will be. It won't be all "good" stuff, but it will focus on stuff that players of paladins and clerics will use, so I imagine there will be a lot of good stuff in there. There's an ironic thing, though... if Wizards does Book of Exalted Deeds, would it be adult? That's kind of weird. Why would it need to be? The irony to me is that "mature" might actually imply moral relativism a bit more than black/white evil/good.

Crustyferret: Here's an interesting question...in a genre where such subjects as demonic possession and vampirism (among other things) are considered normal, what actually qualifies as "adult" in your opinion?

Monte: Subjects dealing with sex, drug use, and particularly vile acts. It's one thing to talk about the evil villain sacrificing his victim. It's another to actually explain why he would do it.

Morrus: Did any of the "touchier" subjects make you feel uncomfortable while writing about them?

Monte: Actually, yes. Deep down, I think I'm a pretty nice guy. Getting into the mindset of someone who actually enjoys killing and torturing, or discussing things like necrophilia, can make me feel uncomfortable.

Morrus: Did you do much research?

Monte: A little bit. Investigating the criminally insane, serial killers, things like that. Sometimes even just browsing through the Heavy Metal section of a record store can inspire vileness. Let me just say, though, that a lot of the book isn't all that intense.

Protean_Victor: Demogorgon, Lloth, Tiamat, Orcus, or Asmodeus: Who would win the bout for chief badass?

Monte: Well, I haven't looked at Lolth's 3rd Edition stats. I imagine, since she's a goddess, she would. I'd like the answer to that question to be Asmodeus, however. Should we talk about the whole god/archfiend thing?

Morrus: Do you see such planar rulers to be equal to bona fide deities? Should they be given "Divine Ranks" such as the gods in Deities & Demigods?

Monte: Here's how it's handled in the book. The demon princes and archdevils are treated as they were in 1st Edition. Really, really powerful beings, not quite gods, but clearly epic-level foes (for the most part). There are, however, some guidelines for those who want to give them Divine Ranks. It's explained how to handle that. It's also explained, I should add, how it works that Orcus isn't a "god" but has worshippers.

Morrus: If they're not gods, why wouldn't some bored deity (either good or evil) not wander into hell and clean it out?

Monte: Well, just because they're not actual gods doesn't mean that they're not obscenely powerful. That statement will make more sense when you've seen the Epic Level Handbook, I suppose. Here's why I don't want them to be gods, however... in 1st Edition, it was great that you could set up a whole campaign around one entity, like Demogorgon. You start the campaign fighting against his cultists and foiling their plans, and eventually you struggle against his actual servants (demons and whatnot), and then ultimately, if you're incredibly high level, you can end the campaign with a climactic battle against Demogorgon himself. I always thought that was cool. The 2nd Edition approach robbed players of the power to ever actually interact with him that way. I'm not in favor of going and bashing on gods. That kind of game isn't my cup of tea. That's why I like a level of entity somewhere in between. Someone that is an actual foe that you can deal with. Maybe. I'm getting off my archfiend soapbox now.

Morrus: If there are evil gods plus demon princes/archdevils on the evil side, do you feel that the "good" side should have an equivalent to the demon princes? Some kind of powerful named beings who are not quite gods?

Monte: Yes. There are such beings in my own campaign, for example.

CreativeMountain: The wonderful Sue Weinlein Cook (possibly the best editor in the business) gets to view all of your work. What were her views on these "evil" projects?

Sue: They were icky.

Monte: She was a part of the playtests for this stuff, so she got to experience some of the "vileness" first hand. My poor players.

Morrus: Does she help you write?

Monte: Occasionally I'll bounce ideas off her, but for the most part I write and she edits, and there's not a lot of overlap. She does a great job of making me look good. :)

Morrus: Helps you maintain the illusion that you can spell and stuff? :)

Monte: Exacterly.

FunkBGR: I bet Sue is typing for him, he's just sitting in his chair and dictating. That's why there are so many pauses and it takes him awhile to write a line ;)

Monte: Damn. You're onto us.

Morrus: Okay, let's leave the evil stuff behind. Have you any plans to use the d20 Modern rules with any Malhavoc projects?

Monte: (Actually, Sue's editing The Banewarrens as we speak.) No. I have no d20 Modern plans.

Morrus: Any thoughts of moving out of the fantasy genre at all?

Monte: Well, if I do, it will be something far future. Really, though, I'm more interested in taking fantasy to new places.

Morrus: Any more Wizards stuff lined up?

Monte: Nope. Except for some articles for Dragon and maybe some short stuff for the D&D website. I'm focusing pretty much 100% on Malhavoc now.

Morrus: How does all the Wizards stuff tend to work out? I mean, do you get phone calls where they say, "Hey, Monte, we know you don't work for us anymore, but could you writ us another book?"

Monte: Actually, all of the Wizards stuff that I wrote after I left was stuff that I was supposed to have written as an in-house designer. I got freelance contracts for doing them as I left. I don't have a strong desire to work for them further. Maybe if something really, really interesting came along...

<pause>

Monte: Did Morrus just disappear?

xmanii: Yeah, we have it covered

<pause>

Monte: So, how 'bout that new Spider-Man movie that's coming?

xmanii: Friday night for me

Monte: We're going Friday afternoon. I'm looking forward to it.

Morrus: Ooops.

Monte: Hey, welcome back.

xmanii: There you are

Monte: You'll edit that out of the transcript, I'll bet.

Morrus: Thought I'd take a tea break :) Hey, I'm infallible! Everyone knows that!

Monte: I'm not questioning that. Welcome, everyone, to the Morrus and Monte show.

Morrus: Did the last question get answered while I was away?

Monte: Uh, sure.

xmanii: "Monte: Actually, all of the Wizards stuff that I wrote after I left was stuff that I was supposed to have written as an in-house designer. I got freelance contracts for doing them as I left. I don't have a strong desire to work for them further. Maybe if something really, really interesting came along...."

Morrus: Got it. I know what I'm doing, honest!

Monte: I've never doubted you.

Morrus: The Banewarrens - did you get that question?

Monte: Uh. Which question?

Morrus: Okay. it was a question asking about plot/setting etc. of the adventure

Monte: Well, it's set in Ptolus, a city that could be easily inserted into any campaign. It could also be transplanted to any cool city, like Freeport. It's got a major urban city adventure component. It also has some dungeon parts. I'm leery of giving away too much of the plot, but I will say that while it has dungeon aspects, it's actually fairly plot heavy.

Morrus: Does it describe Ptolus itself in detail?

Monte: You can run it as a standard dungeon crawl, but that's not the point. Ptolus gets about 8 to 10 pages.

Morrus: Any plans to publish the setting properly?

Monte: Not in the foreseeable future. It's not that I wouldn't love to, but I'm leery because everyone and their mother is putting out a fantasy setting, and how many fantasy settings do we really need? If I did a setting book, it would be something really off-beat and different. I want to produce products people actually want, and will use.

Morrus: Do you think there is much left to do in the traditional D&D-style genre? Or is d20 better served now by moving into new genres?

Monte: I get really twitchy when people start saying "every topic for fantasy is covered." I think that's very small-minded thinking. Maybe -- just maybe -- you'll reach a saturation point of standard, Western medieval fantasy, but that's just one type of fantasy.

Morrus: I guess that's why I'm not a game designer. I have trouble thinking of "new" things to do.

Monte: Fantasy novelists -- good ones -- keep coming up with more stuff. Why can't game designers? :)

Morrus: I'm just the type of person who reuses old ideas. I'll stick to reporting news, I think. :)

Monte: There's nothing wrong with reusing old ideas. :)

ENrious: Monte, do you have any insight on how the ranger class became known for dual-wielding weapons?

Monte: You mean which came first, the ranger or Drizzt?

Morrus: I guess that sums it up :)

Monte: I looked into that. From what I understand, the two-weapon ranger came first, as a niche for the ranger. Bob Salvatore seized on that idea and ran with it. This would have been right around the time Zeb was finishing up 2nd Edition, and thus the rest is history.

Morrus: Is that an archetype you're comfortable with? As opposed to, say, a more customisable outdoorsman?

Monte: I don't much care for it at all, actually. Too limiting. The fighter or the barbarian aren't so limited and focused, for example. I like the more general outdoorsman.

Morrus: How would you stat someone like Aragorn? As a fighter with woodland skills?

Monte: Yes, but Aragorn sort of multiclasses into paladin toward the end, don't you think?

Morrus: Possibly. Not a paladin quite as I see the stereotype, though.

Monte: Well, he's this ultraheroic guy, with a great charisma and healing skills. Maybe that's just ranger.

Morrus: Well, that said, I doubt Tolkien had D&D classes in mind when he designed Aragorn :)

Monte: Agreed. Tolkien died the year before D&D came out. Kind of sad, really. It would have been nice to know what he thought of it.

Morrus: I wonder f he'd have played it had he been around?

Monte: I have a good friend who's a Tolkien scholar. He tells me it wouldn't have been his cup of tea. That friend, by the way, is designer/editor John Rateliff. You may not know it, but he's actually a highly regarded Tolkien expert.

Morrus: That would be an interesting game, though, wouldn't it? Tolkien, Gygax aorund a table. Who else would make a great gaming group?

Monte: I'd put Moorcock in there just so he and Tolkien could argue.

Morrus: Shakespeare could be fun.

Monte: And Steven Brust, 'cause he knows the game. And Steven R. Donaldson, because he's such a nice guy. And I'd make Grant Morrison the DM. I'd play in his freaky, wacked-out game anytime.

Masked: Monte, are you actively using all three of your alternate classes?

Monte: Currently, I have an alternate sorcerer in my game. Had a bard, had a ranger, not currently using either (because of campaign details, not game mechanics).

ENrious: Monte, do you think that companies have become too dependent on creating prestige classes? Would you like to see more companies try to alter some of the core classes or rules instead?

Monte: Well, I don't exactly think that the prestige classes well is dry, but it would be interesting to see more d20 companies actually change the rules rather than just add to them.

Morrus: Blatant plug: I changed the skill system! Buy Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns! (If FDP James can do it, so can I)

Monte: I'll have to check that out. Blatant plugs work.

CreativeMountain: What software do you use to layout PDFs? (Follow up--) What's your current take on viability of PDF sales in the market?

Monte: We use Quark and then Distiller. I don't know what the viability of the market is. I know that we're still VERY happy with our PDF sales, but I don't think everyone's seeing as much success with them. It could be that it's still a very limited market.

Morrus: From what I've gathered, the average pdf publisher is lucky to sell 150 copies. Out of interest: How many copies do you tend to sell (in PDF form)?

Monte: Well, I'm not a big fan of disclosing stuff like that, and I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but we seem to sell about as many PDF as most publishers sell of their print products. From what I hear. All I know is, we're very happy with PDF and will keep doing them.

teitan: Monte, what do you think of a classless and leveless d20 variant and how would you go about it?

Monte: I think it would be very limited in appeal, to be honest. You can see the Line of Sight column on my website for why. I'd guess you could just have a certain amount of skill points and feats that you'd get. You could devise a system where instead of XP, you were awarded some sort of value that translated directly into skill points or feats. That would be Hell on Earth to balance, though.

FunkBGR: Monte, this room has 60+ people, and the previous chat a similar large amount. People are drawn to you and your ideas. How does this affect you, as a person? As a game designer? Your family life?

Morrus: (The last time you were here you drew 150 people -- people seem to be having trouble connecting today, though.)

Monte: Well, that's a hard question to answer and not sound obnoxious. It's thrilling, really. I like to think of myself as an idea person, first and foremost. If it turns out that there are other people who like my ideas, that obviously makes me feel great.

Morrus: Do you feel "famous" (at least when online)?

Monte: I try to keep things in perspective. We have a small industry. A big fish in a small pond, and all that. I like to think that what I've done is found people who are similiarly minded and I'm sharing cool ideas with them.

Morrus: Get much fan mail?

Monte: I do get really nice emails from people who drop me a line just to say that they like something I've written. That means SO MUCH to me. It's like, "You did a good thing today, Monte." How can that not make you feel good?

Morrus: I agree. But then my experience is limited more to complaints. :) Do people email you with rules questions?

Monte: One nice email makes up for 20 complaints, though, right? I get a lot of rules questions. That's one thing that gets to me. I'm happy to help, but Wizards actually pays people to answer those questions. They don't pay me for that. ;)

Morrus: Oh, absolutely. After 20 complaints I just wonder what the heck I'm doing. But then one nice email changes it all around again.

Monte: It's not that bad, though. Like I said, I'm happy to help if I have time. And if it's about something that I actually wrote (it's often not), then it's my responsibility.

Mandrikar: Monte...Do you play computer games? If so what genre? What are some of your favorites?

Monte: Right now, I'm dangerously addicted to Dungeon Siege. What a cool game. Before that, I was loving Freedom Force.

Morrus: Hey -- there's an idea. Celebrity Neverwinter Nights games! "Play in a game run by Monte Cook!"

Monte: Cool. The one thing that makes me hesitant about Neverwinter Nights is how much time it appears to take to actually create a detailed adventure. But it'll most likely be totally worth it. It looks really cool.

Morrus: I'll try it. I have my doubts about it, but I'll wait to see it.

ENrious: Monte, do you think the industry is a better place to be in now or when you started?

Monte: Wow. Ryan Dancey asked me that same question not long ago. It's a much better place now. When I got into it to begin with, around 1988, things were sort of cynical. Everyone thought, "Been there, done that." There wasn't a lot of innovation and new blood being introduced. Now, it's an exciting place to be.

Morrus: Just in the d20 industry, or the RPG industry as a whole?

Monte: The d20 industry almost is the RPG industry as a whole. Seriously, though, d20 has made non-d20 publishers get more innovative.

Morrus: Oooh -- I can see the thread on RPG.net already!

Monte: That's cool. Bring it on, rpg.net.

Morrus: What do you think of all the d20-bashers out there? Some seem to show real hatred for what is, in the long run, just a game.

Monte: Yeah, that's a topic we could spend the whole night on. It's weird. You go to a place like rpg.net, and you'd think that most gamers aren't playing D&D, when nothing could be further from the truth. This industry is so lop-sided it's not even funny.

Morrus: It's odd that you don't see people bashing, say Monopoly or chess in the same way.

Monte: Monopoly? Uh. I hate that game. It's so broken and only little kids play it and... Okay, I'm kidding. You're right. :) Hate to say it, but I should probably call it a night soon. And it's what, like 4 in the morning for you, Morrus?

Morrus: It always seem to be 4 a.m. for me. Okay, people, last round of questions for Monte.

skeetyrbug: Question for Monte: Any room in your Ptolus campaign for a fellow Seattle-ite?

Monte: Sorry. It's pretty full, and there's actually sort of a waiting list.

Morrus: Who's in it right now?

Monte: Bruce Cordell, Andy Collins, Chris Perkins, Michele Carter, Sue, Erik Mona, Jesse Decker, Keith Strohm, Sean Reynolds... I think that's it.

Morrus: At least there's a group who knows the system :)

Bolen: Please ask him if he thinks there is a limit to the type of roleplaying that could be done with the d20 system. Is there any genre that it would fail with?

Monte: Since the d20 system can be morphed into practically anything (you could get rid of the classes and levels, as we said before), I'd say no.

Morrus: At its core, all it really is is a simple resolution mechanic - d20 + mod vs. DC.

Fish: Monte, what house rules do you use besides your own version of the ranger/sorcerer/bard? How close to the Player's Handbook do you stay?

Monte: Pretty close, actually. I use instant kill from the DMG, and this weird "roll a 20, roll again and add, roll a 1, roll again and subtract" rule just for fun. And lots of new spells and stuff from various books. Mostly Malhavoc. :) I've tweaked a few other things, like Spring Attack and whatnot.

Morrus: Okay, last question!

Scarogoth: Not too sure whether anybody has ever asked this, but I was wondering whether Monte ever has recourse to use rulebooks, or does he just remember it all?!

Monte: Actually, I have an occasional problem in that sometimes I'll remember a rule the way it was in an earlier draft of 3rd Edition, or I'll remember some discussion about a rule with Jonathan and Skip, but I won't remember what we eventually decided. So yes, I have to check the books now and again.

Morrus: Oh, just one more...

Masked: Monte, how did you tweak Spring Attack, I've been having a little difficulty with it in my game.

Monte: Mostly, I impose a movement minimum of 10 feet at the beginning and end of the attack. So you can't just be in melee and say you're Spring Attacking when you're obviously not. That's the big change.

Morrus: Hey -- I do that too!

Monte: Cool.

Morrus: Okay, let's wrap up then. Thanks for coming by, Monte!

Morrus: It's been fun :)

Monte: It's been my pleasure. Are you guys having an EN World gathering at GenCon?

Morrus: I think it's going to be unavoidable. It's looking like I'll have to be there for a particular event. (More on that later!)

Monte: I'd like to come, if you do!

Morrus: You're more than welcome! :) I'll open up the room now. And I'll probably go and sleep for 24 hours or so....

* Transcript edited for style and clarity.